Interview: Lech Walesa
Nobel Prize for Peace

(Mr. Walesa's interview was conducted with the assistance of an interpreter.)

I'd like you to introduce us to Lech Walesa as you were at age ten. Who are you? Where are you living?

Lech Walesa: I live in a village. It's the year 1952-53. So that means it's the post-war time. There is a lot of poverty. I am in the third grade of a primary school. I walk five kilometers to go to school, a long way. Then seven kilometers on foot after school to go to church, and that's every day.

What do your parents hope for you at this point?

Lech Walesa: I believe they really cared about survival until the next day, how to make a living. Perhaps they wondered, "What will he grow into? What kind of a man will he be?" because I was really a very lively child. I really needed to break at least one window every month, and to get into mischief, so they must have wondered.

How many children were there in the family?

Lech Walesa: It was a combined family as I would call it.

My father died on returning from the war, and his brother took care of my mother and of my family because my father had pledged him to. So, there were four of us in our family -- that is, four children -- and my father's brother had three children. And we all have grown into decent people, and me, myself, into the president of our own country and a Nobel Peace Prize holder and some other things have happened to me in the meantime. So, I really knew what was the purpose of me breaking the windows. I had this idea that the people who make glass, make windows, could earn their money to make their living.

How important was the church in your life?

Lech Walesa: In my family and in Poland in general, the church has always played an important role.

As you know, my home country is located between two powerful nations, between Russia and Germany, who are very sociable peoples and they enjoy visiting one another, so they need to cross Poland on the way. That's why our geographical position was always tough, and we could only survive under certain circumstances. We could only survive as a nation thanks to our deep belief in God because we lived through some absolutely hopeless situations in history and on several occasions, we were erased as a country from the map of the world. But, thanks to our religious belief, we survived and in fact, we continue persisting. That's why this belief was always really deep, and it was tangible. It was not an old-fashioned religious belief -- because we continue to be a religious people -- but this is not really an outdated, old-fashioned religion, and beyond progress. Today the Polish people, myself included, find God in the newest-generation computer, because He is there. It's a question of people being able to find him there. He's very modern. He's a very modern God, and He's really very good to live with.

He had trouble living with the Polish state at the time that you were a child.

Lech Walesa: It is true, but such difficulties and such hardships really reinforce and strengthen people. I think it's a lack of problems that make people really lazy and breaks the spirit. My conclusion is that weak people have no god, and all those who are strong really -- they all have God.

Tell me about school. What kind of studies did you have?

Lech Walesa: Elementary school? That was the same as for everybody, just the basic education. How to read and to write, but I believe there was also a school of living. It was a country school and I lived in the countryside, and that was a life where each child, apart from school, had also some other obligations, some other work to do.

When I was a child, the principles of life in the countryside were very, very clear, especially our attitude towards nature, but also in the human relations. It is true that with nature, you would steal some things from nature, you would hunt something in nature, but with great respect, and whenever nature needed some assistance from us, when there was winter, when things were difficult for nature, we wouldn't hunt, and then we would help nature and all the living creatures. Nobody even dared to go hunting in this period. And, as far into human relationships, the principles were also very transparent and clear. If people had things that they -- some reproach or some resentment -- it was only natural to say it straightforwardly and explain what the resentment is about. Sometimes manually I would say it, but without the courtesy, without the "please," and I must say that they were usually very honest dealings because as I said, they were very straightforward principles, straightforward rules, but very honest, and that's why I liked them.

Things have changed since then. People do break rules now.

Was school less important to you than what went on outside of school?

Lech Walesa: It wasn't so, really.

Since I came from a very poor family, that's why everybody from my household wanted to learn, and they wanted to go on into the world. And well, I just tried to do the same thing. Of course, we gained our education in the schools that were in the near vicinity, and we were prepared more for the practical side of life. So we were not humanists, we were not theoreticians. We were educated in practical matters, like an electrician, a welder, and some other practical professions. Something -- you were trained to be able to produce something and to make money on it.

How did you choose to become an electrician?

Lech Walesa: There were things about electricity that I liked because when I got to know electricity, I was really interested. There was great interest for me. I wanted to look inside it and I wanted to see what electricity is about, and I really got some shocks from that investigation at that point. And, then I said to myself, "How can it be? I can't see it, still it really beat me up." So, I decided to step back according to those basic transparent rules that I was quoting. But, the point is that before I actually got to know electricity, I was the one that was beaten. So, I decided to get to know it better, and that's why I educated myself in this direction.

What was the procedure? Did you serve an apprenticeship? How did one become an electrician?

Lech Walesa: There was a three-year vocational school after elementary school. Once you completed the three years, you became an electrician. I combined this training with mechanical training, because I was also keen on cars. When I first went to school, it was the first time I saw a car. It was perhaps 1949. I hadn't seen a car before. That was the kind of village that I came from.

I can still remember this first car very clearly, and when I grew up, I bought one like it and worked on it. I did the repairs myself. Who knows, perhaps it was precisely the same car that I had seen as the first car in my life. It was really an exhausted car, and it needed a lot of repair.

At this point in your life, were you thinking about politics at all?

Lech Walesa: I never thought of politics at that point, and I never wanted to exert any public function. I never got any adequate training for this purpose, and I disliked it in fact. But at home, we used to listen to the radio. They were forbidden radio stations at that time, like Radio Free Europe and BBC. That was forbidden by the authorities at that time, and people could end up in jail for listening to those broadcasts. So while I was there, listening with the rest of the family and for this reason -- since I could feel the ban on such simple things -- I disliked the system from the very beginning. And, gradually I grew up and I continued disliking the system even more, and there were certain forums where I would speak out about it, and that's when my trouble started, my problems started. And, the point was that the more trouble I had, the more openly I would speak, and this has, in fact, put me on this path of dissidence, later to continue into the real struggle against the system.

How old were you when you began to speak out in public?

Lech Walesa: I have been struggling ever since I can remember, against different things. As I said, my background was really based on very simple principles and rules, and I could observe already in elementary school that some of those principles were violated, because after all that was a communist school. So I became a dissident pretty soon in life, of course on a smaller scale at first.

Were notes written home to your parents saying that this child is not behaving?

Lech Walesa: It is true that I was in trouble many times. But as I said, I was quite a lively child, and I had my own mind. And, even if I saw things look differently that wouldn't change my mind. And, I even got involved and set up a conflict with the priest. I believe it may have been when I was around ten. I can't remember what it actually boiled down to. But, the point was that I was right, not him. And in fact, I followed him for like a fortnight and kept repeating that I'm right not him, and finally he had to give in, and then he said to me the following: "Well, my boy, you will either reach very, very far or you will end up in jail." And the truth is, I sampled both in my life.

So what finally brought you to the Lenin shipyard in Gdansk? How did that happen?

Lech Walesa: I think that was when I was about 27.

I was around my household, my family, working in different repair workshops, but I felt a little bit restricted, confined to these surroundings. On one occasion, I just go into a train and I came to Gdansk. Well in fact, my ticket was bought for a further destination than Gdansk, but what happened was the train controller said to me that we would have a longer stop in Gdansk, like half an hour. I was extremely thirsty, and so I got off the train. What happened was that, before I actually drank what I was drinking, the train had left. So I was left in Gdansk, and I have stayed for 30 years in Gdansk since.

That's how I ended up in the shipyard. There was always demand for labor, and I found a job there.

Did you need the government's permission to live in Gdansk?

Lech Walesa: No, there was no need for such permission. There were workers' hotels. There was such demand for labor that they would even send money to people for them to come over and work in the shipyard. They really had so much work at that point they needed a lot of workers.

That shipyard is a big place. You were an independent spirit even then. What was it like to work in this kind of big structure?

Lech Walesa: I felt a little bit uneasy to start with, because it was really a big city, with a relatively big population. Where I had lived before, there were very few people. Everybody knew me. Everybody would bow to the ground before me, because I was somebody there. I was really talented, I could earn a lot of money, so on the local scale, I was highly positioned, Now here I was, in Gdansk, there's nobody saying hello to me or bowing to me, nobody noticing me, so I decided to change the situation. I must make them recognize me. Well as it turned out afterwards, people recognized me.

And what did they recognize in you?

Lech Walesa: It took a long, long time before it actually happened, but as I said...

The education, the background that I had, the straightforward principles that I referred to, based on rules and values -- which is the truth, honesty, decent behavior, decency -- all this really gave me a lot of support around people, among the working people. It was a little bit more difficult to find some understanding among the powerful people, the hierarchy because I would often criticize them. I would point out things that they did wrong or that didn't function well. So, the point was that I got some support and some stimulus from the low levels, whereas I wouldn't get the criticism from the top levels of the people.

What was the cause of unhappiness in the shipyard? What were the conditions that people became unhappy with?

Lech Walesa: A shipyard is a kind of a window to the world. In a shipyard, people are arriving from all different places around the world. There would be sailors and there would be ship owners. So, that also incited discussions about working conditions, living conditions. So people would start comparing what money they make here and what money was made elsewhere. And, the point was that those people who were aware of other things, they would revolt more quickly than the others, by comparing the achievements of one system against the other and also the working conditions and the salaries. That's why occasionally we would protest. Sometimes there were large-scale protests and sometimes they were smaller-scale protests. And, my career is actually made by those protests. Had we had better living and working conditions, I wouldn't be here talking to you.

Weren't people afraid to protest at first? It must have taken some persuasion.

Lech Walesa: When it comes to struggle, almost everybody is nervous and afraid, in every struggle all over the world. I think in Poland the anxiety was even stronger, because after all, we had to face the Political Police.

We had the Soviet troops stationed in Poland for 50 years, over 200,000 soldiers based permanently on the territory of Poland. So, people would end up in prisons for some time, very often, they would be beaten up by the police. There were not so many people who would claim to be very courageous. Then again, you have people of different characters. Some are really put off by the hardships, by the difficulties, whereas the others actually strengthen. I was among the latter, who became stronger due to the hardships, and I got involved in my struggle with much more determination.

Why did the shipyard management tolerate you as long as they did?

Lech Walesa: I believe they're asking themselves the same question now. I believe Gorbachev himself is asking the same question, because after all, I did lead to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and he ceased being the First Secretary of the Communist Party. Despite that fact, he received a Nobel Peace Prize, and so did I. I got my prize for winning against Gorbachev and against the Soviet Union, whereas he received it for his defeat, which was considered valuable in a certain category. That's the world, two opponents.

Before you changed the world, you were fired, from your job in the shipyard. How did that happen?

Lech Walesa: I was fired on several occasions, because really, I got involved in the struggle with more and more determination, and I believe we can already quote the date 1970 as the date of my determined struggle. I was already the leader of the strike then. It was a very inefficient leadership on my part, and we failed with our strike in 1970, but that defeat caused my character -- due to my character I spent the next ten years trying to work out the method that would actually bring about the victory. And when, ten years later, we had another opportunity, I already knew how to go about it, how to deal with it, and I led the struggle the way -- as it should be.

What were some of the things you learned to do differently that led to the ultimate success?

Lech Walesa: I really had to think over every detail and everything, the whole defeat of 1970. I had to go into really many details. How to achieve victory, what kind of an organization to establish in order to win this victory, and what would be the stages in which we could win the victory? How to avoid the tragedy of bloodshed, of being shut out, and how to negotiate, how to protect food, how to organize duties in order for the whole organization to function, and try to foresee all the possible situations that might happen. And, bearing in mind that there could be alternative outcomes, like a tragic one and a less tragic one, to take into account the behavior of people who are afraid. To take into consideration the behavior of the provocateurs, those who can provoke, and the opponents who would certainly carry out certain resistant action within us. So really, the ten years was not even enough for me to think over all those details. But in fact, when it came, when the situation actually happened, nothing came as a surprise to me. So that means I had foreseen almost all the possible details, not in full, not fully, but generally at least. And certainly, without that period of ten years, we wouldn't have won the victory. Had it not been for the previous defeat, we wouldn't have won the final victory. So, I would say that without the defeat of 1970 we wouldn't have had the victory of 1980.

Why did it become a national movement and not just stay confined to Gdansk?

Lech Walesa: It's hard to say it very briefly, but the point was that the communist system was bound to fail, because it was an inefficient economic system and it couldn't keep up with the speed of progress in the West.

But there was one more thing that contributed to the victory. In the 1970s and in the 1980s, I had conversations with all the powerful people of the world: with presidents, with prime ministers, chancellors and kings, too. None of them believed that there was any chance of us toppling communism before the year 2000. I didn't meet a single person among those people who would believe that was possible. Not a single one in the whole world.

When I continued saying that we were to win against communism by peaceful means, they looked at me like a madman. And right now we are going to celebrate 2000 years of Christianity, and we have this incredible thing happen to us. We get this divine gift from Heaven, when nobody believes it's possible. Here we have a Pole becoming the Pope. A year later, he visits Poland and he tells us, "Don't be afraid. Change the face of this world." And soon afterwards, we stopped fearing. The fear is gone. A year later out of the 10 people that I had in my command at that point, I have 10 million supporting me, and I actually carry out the changing of the face of the world.

I consider this a gift of Providence to celebrate the 2000 years of Christianity. That was the 51 percent contribution to the success. The 35 percent that contributed to success is myself and Solidarity, and the remaining percentage is everybody else's contribution. The actual stamp on the final victory was put down by President Yeltsin, who made a favorable atmosphere, who opposed Mikhail Gorbachev, and who withdrew Russia out of the Soviet Union. Without those three factors, we wouldn't have final victory.

Although you may claim that the Berlin Wall fell down earlier, before Russia actually withdrew from the Soviet Union, I'm sure that even if it had fallen down without Russia doing what she did, it would have been rebuilt personally by the Chancellor of Germany and the President of the United States.

So, please consider these three factors as the major factors. Of course, from the perspective of different nations, there would be other additional factors, but they would be only minor.

Thank you very much, Mr. President.