Frank Johnson Interview (page: 4 / 9) Presidential Medal of Freedom	Print Interview

The desegregation of the public schools was one of the most difficult battles in your career, wasn't it?

Frank Johnson: That's because of the emotions that get involved in it.

Get the Flash Player to see this video. Finally, I just entered an order desegregating over 100 public schools in the state of Alabama. Took the whole thing over. And that was the beginning of the end of school segregation in Alabama. Stopped focusing just on one school, one small school system, or one large school system. Put them all in. "You get us a plan that will desegregate. Eliminate discrimination on the basis of race, file a formal plan, put your superintendents and the boards of education in each school system under an injunction to do that." So I held court here on Saturday. Every Saturday for six months. You had over 100 school systems. Let them bring those plans in. Present them. Hear the other side. Either adopt them or send them back to revise it.

[ Key to Success ] Perseverance

That must have been a lot of work.

Frank Johnson: Sure. Interferes with your fishing too.

Why was this so difficult? Why was it such an emotional issue?

Frank Johnson: School desegregation? White people did not want their children to sit with, eat with, get acquainted with, play with black children. It was something that had never been done in this section of the country. It was an emotional thing. Some black parents had some emotional problems about being required to send their children to predominantly and formerly all-white schools. So it wasn't just on the white side.

The head of one of those school boards said that segregation was necessary "to separate good people from bad people." Do you remember that?

Frank Johnson: No, but I'm not surprised that some superintendent said that.

And the Chief Justice of Alabama, I believe, said that he would do anything in his power to keep his kids from "going to school with colored people."

Frank Johnson: I don't remember that. The Chief Justice of the state? That may be true, but I don't remember that.

Did you come up against a lot of opposition in those days?

Frank Johnson: Sure. I still get opposition. When you have litigation, you have two sides. When cases involve legal questions that are important enough to litigate in the federal courts, you rarely ever have a case without some kind of emotionalism in it.

Do you have to separate your own emotions to do your work?

Frank Johnson: I try not to get my emotions involved in any lawsuit. I don't ever remember being personally emotional or having emotional feelings in any lawsuit. It's not my lawsuit. It's their lawsuit. All I'm here to do is determine what the law is, and then apply it. If you take that approach, there is no basis for getting emotional.

Where do you think your own urge to serve the public good came from? Why stick your neck out as far as you have?

Get the Flash Player to see this video. Frank Johnson: I don't consider having, quote, "stuck my neck out," end quote. I value the decisions that I've made and the effect of those decisions. I did it not for my benefit, but in the first place, I did it to decide the issues that were presented to me in legal cases that came up routinely through the system. My oath as a United States judge required that I decide cases like I think the law requires it to be decided. So, technically you had no option if you are going to be a good judge. You do what you agreed to do.

[ Key to Success ] Integrity

It seems you had a very strong pull toward public service.

Frank Johnson: If I'd been working for a law firm, I think I would have had the same attitude. It wasn't just because I was a public servant. It was because I had a job to do. If I'd been working in a steel mill, I would have done the same thing: what my job requires be done.

You've said in previous interviews that growing up in Winston County probably had an influence on your career. How so? Could you give us some history of the place?

Frank Johnson: Well, when the Confederacy seceded from the Union, Winston County passed a resolution at a public hearing over at Loonie's Tavern in the eastern end of Winston County, seceding from the state of Alabama and reaffirming their allegiance to the United States. I've always been proud of that. It was a good thing to have done. Had I been there, I would have attended the conference and refused to secede from the United States. That's the history part. People in Winston County generally are very independent, they think for themselves. You don't have any rich people up there, you have poor people. It's in the hills of northwest Alabama. No big cities there, some towns, a lot of farmers, and their standards are very basic. That's where I grew up.

You've used the expression "frontier justice." What does that mean?

Frank Johnson: Well, I consider the expression frontier justice to be justice that is demanded by individuals, demanded by groups, without being enjoined or mandated by a judicial body.

Did you feel a sense of that there?

Frank Johnson: Oh, yes. Most of those people did.

Were any of your relatives or ancestors involved in public service?

Frank Johnson: My father was a county judge. That's when I decided I wanted to be a lawyer. I used to go and sit in the courtroom, and watch him try cases, watch lawyers argue.

Wasn't there also a great-grandfather who was a sheriff?

Frank Johnson: You're talking about Treadway. He's buried up there in Walker County, down at Carbon Hill, which is just a mile or two from where the old Treadway-Johnson farms were. He had some basic philosophies. When the South seceded from the Union, he went up to Decatur, Alabama, the closest Union group, and enlisted as a member of the Union Army. One of my relatives on the other side enlisted as a member of the Confederacy. So, they fought on both sides. But in each instance, they were doing what they thought was right.

Your great-grandfather had a nickname, didn't he?

Frank Johnson: Yes. It had something to do with his character: "Straight Edge." He was a farmer and raised horses. He had his own horse track, and they raced horses. Don't ask me if they bet on them; I don't know that. I would guess they did. That was their weekend entertainment. Big farms, no money, a lot of work. I didn't come from a rich family, I came from poor families.

They made him sheriff, didn't they?

Frank Johnson: Oh, yes. Sheriff of Fayette County. The Klan gave him a hard time. My family had been opposing the Klan for over 100 years when I came down to Montgomery. They got someone that was hard to intimidate. Can't do it.

How do you suppose your background in Winston County, the example of your father and your great-grandfather influenced your own decision-making process as a judge?

Get the Flash Player to see this video. Frank Johnson: The basic concept that a good judge has to have is to do what's right, regardless of who the litigants are, regardless of how technical, or regardless of how emotional the issues that are presented are. If you are not willing to do what's right, then you need to get you another job. So I never did think that I was entitled to any great credit for doing it, because that was my obligation. That's what I signed on to do. Some judges didn't do that, but that's their problem.

[ Key to Success ] Integrity

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