Ruth Bader Ginsburg Interview (page: 5 / 5) Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court	Print Interview

In 1975 you argued before the Supreme Court on behalf of a man's right to survivor benefits. In Weinberger v. Wiesenfeld, you argued that a man, a widower, deserved what a widow would normally get. Can you talk about the importance of that case?

Get the Flash Player to see this video. Ruth Bader Ginsburg: Steven Wiesenfeld had a very happy marriage. He was trying to start up a computer business at home. His wife was the dominant breadwinner, she was a teacher. She had a healthy pregnancy, she was teaching even into her ninth month. She went to the hospital to give birth, and the doctor came out and told Steven Wiesenfeld, "You have a healthy baby boy, but your wife died of an embolism." So Steven vowed that he would not go back to work, that he would not work full time, until Jason, the baby, was in school full time. And he asked the Social Security -- he called at the local office -- and said that he wanted what was called "child in care" benefits. These were benefits for a sole surviving parent to take care of a child under the age of -- I don't remember whether it was 12 or 16. In any case, the person at the Social Security office told Steven, "These are mothers' benefits. They are not available to fathers." And Steven asked why. He said, "Social Security taxes were deducted from Paula's check, her wages, just as they would be from a man." So essentially her contribution, her Social Security taxes, did not buy for her family the same protection that a man's tax payments would secure for his family. So although the person who was feeling the loss of benefits was male, it started with discrimination against the woman as wage earner. So the woman was discriminated against as wage earner, the male as parent, and that conformed to what was the basic separation that the man was the breadwinner, the woman was responsible for care of the home and children. So again, we never challenged how life was for most people. We said stereotypes -- while there are stereotypes that are true in general -- but there were many people who don't fit the mold. And the whole object in the 1970s -- through first public education, then attempt to change the laws by going to the state legislatures and Congress, and finally the courts were there as a last resort.

The idea I think was best expressed in a song that Ms. Magazine published, and I think Marlo Thomas was involved. The song is "Free to Be You and Me," and that was the idea. That the male or female, you should be free to follow your star, to develop your talent, and you shouldn't be held back by artificial barriers.

You've said that some laws that seemed on the surface to be helping women were actually discriminatory, because they implied that women needed more help than men.

Ruth Bader Ginsburg: That women need to be protected.

Get the Flash Player to see this video. That was true, our legislation said women couldn't work more than eight hours a day, 40 hours a week. And that might have been fine in the days of sweatshops, when some employers required women to work six days a week, 12 hours a day. But over the years, especially with unions protecting workers, the workday shrunk from 12 hours to ten hours to eight. And then if an employer wanted more hours, the employer would have to pay time-and-a-half or double time for those additional hours. So the hours laws that started out to protect women from sweatshop conditions ended up protecting men's jobs from women's competition. If an employer has two choices, a woman who cannot be engaged to work overtime and a man who is willing to do that, he would pick the man. So the protections, over time, came to be not protections but barriers for women. To take another simple example, women couldn't be engaged to work at night, no night work. Well if a woman is a waitress, the most lucrative tips, at banquets and such, come in the evening, not at lunchtime. So women came to realize that these old-style protections were not genuine protections for women, but they helped to keep things the way they were, where there was this sharp divide between what women do and what men do, and the notion was to break down those stereotypes. So if a man wants to go to a nursing school, then that's okay, that's fine. And if a woman wants to be an engineer, a doctor, lawyer, Indian chief, that's fine too. And now it's not at all extraordinary for a woman to be any of those things.

What does the American Dream mean to you, Justice Ginsburg?

Get the Flash Player to see this video. Ruth Bader Ginsburg: How can I describe the American Dream? Maybe it's captured by the first ride I took on a New York subway, after returning from several months in Sweden, where everybody looked the same, and here I was on the subway, and the amazing diversity of the people of the United States. You know the motto is E pluribus unum -- "Of many, one" -- and that's the idea that, more than just tolerating, we can appreciate our differences and yet pull together for the long haul. So that is my idea of the American Dream, sometimes referred to as "the melting pot." That's not quite right, because we keep our individual identities, but we are all Americans, and proud to live in the land of the free.

[ Key to Success ] The American Dream

What do you think is the next frontier in women's rights or civil rights? Where do we still need to go?

Get the Flash Player to see this video. Ruth Bader Ginsburg: The hardest barrier to surmount for most women, I think it's no longer at the entry level of any job, no longer access to any educational facility. I think, for example, that Justice Kagan did not encounter any discrimination in admissions to college, law school, getting a job, getting a clerkship. But what is very hard for most women is what happens when children are born. Will men become equal parents, sharing the joys as well as the burdens of bringing up the next generation? But that's my dream for the world, for every child to have two loving parents who share in raising the child.

[ Key to Success ] Vision

And now, I think I have to go back to work.

Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with us.

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